Brexit: Poll of Stockopedia subscribers

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15th Jun '16 by PhilHofGrowYourDough

48 comments 18804 reads

Hi,

How about a poll of Stockopedia subscribers in respect of Brexit?

Vote up this post if you vote to REMAIN
Vote down this post if you vote to LEAVE

If you wish to spoil you paper please feel free to leave your comment below :-)

Perhaps it'd be most informative if only UK voters took part?

Regards
Phil

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About the Author

PhilHofGrowYourDough

Premium Member

48 comments

PhilHofGrowYourDough

23rd Jun '16

The point you seem to miss PhilH is that they take our (British taxpayers) money and distribute it mailnly to other countries.

50% of our contributions come back to us via rebates or investments in deprived areas of the UK. I'm sure some is wasted, much like it is in parliament.

Are you familiar with the quote "He knows the cost of everything but the value of nothing?"

Everyone is out grabbing grabbing grabbing for themselves.

What politicians fail to recognise is that if I'm honest my family could afford to pay more tax, give a little more to support the disadvantaged and by no means is my family loaded but god forbid they suggest taxing us. Truth is that is probably the case for everyone who visits this site.

Sometimes it's easier to paint the picture of the those receiving benefits or investment as spongers, chancers or criminals rather than disempowered or impoverished.

Trust me if you sat in on some of the stories than young people would tell you in counselling sessions in communities in the south wales valleys you might consider it to be money well spent. The same applies to the stories that refugees tell as they access counselling through charities such as MIND.

Each to their own
Phil

Blissgull

23rd Jun '16

"50% of our contributions come back to us via rebates or investments in deprived areas of the UK."

Fair enough Phil, then I have a proposition for you.

You give me say £100k and I will generously give you back £50k provided I can tell you exactly what to spend it on. Does that sound like a good deal to you?

"Everyone is out grabbing grabbing grabbing for themselves. "
You mean like people who will vote in this referendum on the basis of what they believe is best for their portfolio's rather than what is best for their country?

timarr

23rd Jun '16

We contribute about £6 billion a year net to the EU. If we look at Norway, who are outside the EU but contribute to the EU budget in order to get limited access to the single market, and pro rata up their contribution to the size of the UK economy it would suggest we would need to contribute about £3 billion to the EU in order to get that access.

However, Norway accepts freedom of movement. Clearly that wouldn't be acceptable to the Leave campaign so assuming a deal can be done it would almost certain involve an increased budget contribution, negating most if not all of the financial benefit.

In return for which we lose all influence, voting and veto rights over the biggest economic region on the planet and one which is naturally inclined to regulate the hell out of our biggest export industry, financial services. So we have to do a deal on single market access, otherwise our financial services companies will all have to set up EU based subsidiaries in the same way that Switzerland has done. In that situation economic migration will reverse sharply, and not in a good way.

The budget contribution is, like so much in this campaign, a non-issue. We will pay whether we stay or we leave.

timarr

PhilHofGrowYourDough

23rd Jun '16

Sadly given that I have no choice but to give £100k to the UK government or you then it might well be a good deal

I trust the EU to focus the money back on the disadvantaged in my region more effectively than UK government.

And please don't truck out we could have built x hospitals a year with the money.

Ask yourself this ... if UK government wanted to build more hospitals and employ more staff then perhaps a few less wars might be a good starting point. Perhaps you could provide the figures for how much we spent in that area over the last 15 years. It would make an interesting comparison. The more countries working an negotiating together on a regular basis the less chance of war, which can only be a good thing.

Our spending on the EU whilst a large number is minuscule in comparison to many other areas of UK spending.

Blissgull

23rd Jun '16

Phil,
Throughout this exchange I have noticed a very annoying tendency on your part to keep changing the subject and to make statements which are either irrelevant or so bland as to be completely meaningless.

Here is an example of a statement which is so bland as to be completely meaningless.

"Horrible people are horrible people irrespective of race, colour or creed."

Oh really, who would have thought it? Perhaps you have also noticed that tall people are tall regardless of colour or creed and short people are short regardless of colour or creed. Such a pointless statement might perhaps be justified if you are a headmaster trying to give moral guidance to infants, it has no place in any rational debate among adults. It means nothing and proves nothing and does not in any way support your arguments.

The points you make about money spent on wars are valid in their own context, i.e. as comments on the actions of British governments under Blair and others, they are not relevant to the discussion of EU membership. They could only be relevant if you are trying to argue that either.

1. Foreign (EU) politicians are inherently better than British politicians, or
2. That politicians become more responsible under the EU, e.g. that someone such as Neil Kinnock cannot be trusted as a British politician but somehow improves when he is an unelected EU administrator.

I assume that you are not trying to make such arguments as they seem to be to be absurd. If you do not like the way that British politicians behave then you do not have to vote for them. It is not an valid argument to hand over our decision making to foreigners.

As for your claims of the efficiency of EU spending everything I have seen suggests that the EU is actually highly wasteful, inefficient and probably corrupt.

I suspect that your claims about how you prefer the EU's expenditure are actually simply due to the fact that the EU currently more accurately reflects your own political views than does the UK government. That should be an irrelevance.

Patriotic movements are still on the rise across most of Europe. Would you still support the EU if it came to be dominated by political movements such as France's Front National or Greece's Golden Dawn?

Noodle Hat

23rd Jun '16

quite, i think the eu bill is 0.37% of budget i saw on one graphic, so say we get back half is actually only about 0.185% of our budget.....

seems a lot of fuss over a relatively small amount -especially as I trust the EU to spend it more wisely in investing in our country than a conservative gov. who is cutting back everything.

PhilHofGrowYourDough

23rd Jun '16

Thanks for your feedback about my style. I'm sure you can take responsibility for your own emotional response. You only seem to place value on things you think aren't obvious.

I'm going to take you off track again ... but perhaps if you can go with it you might see it's value.

Have you heard of The Drama Triangle? Perhaps go away and have a read of it first.

It feels as if you (and the whole Exit campaign) are holding the position that the UK is a victim that is being persecuted by the EU. You claim that we have no power or influence over their apparently unreasonable behaviour and that 'things', policy, etc is simply forced upon us. At the core of The Drama Triangle is anxiety.

I take a different view that actually the UK is empowered in the relationship, can influence and shape policy and even veto. At the core of my alternative view is Opportunity.

I suspect that your claims about how you prefer the EU's expenditure are actually simply due to the fact that the EU currently more accurately reflects your own political views than does the UK government. That should be an irrelevance.

Right back at you kidda.

My evidence for my beliefs is the regeneration of the towns in the South Wales Valleys via EU investment and my experience of trying to recruit engineers into a growing software firm. <shrug>

By the way, I'll write however I want to thanks very much! Take it or leave it.

Blissgull

23rd Jun '16

"My evidence for my beliefs is the regeneration of the towns in the South Wales Valleys via EU investment and my experience of trying to recruit engineers into a growing software firm. "

You have not addressed the central issue of why it is better that such supposed regeneration should be done via the EU, ie. how it is better for the UK to pay a large sum into the EU and receive a small ammount back to be spent on the Welsh valleys is better than spending the money on regeneration directly ourselves? Your argument seems to be that at the moment you just prefer the policies of the EU to the policies of the UK government, or rather what you believe would be the policies of an independent UK government.

Supposer the EU decides to stop giving money for the regeneration of Welsh valleys while a potential UK government wishes to spend more on Welsh regeneration, would you then change your mind? Such matters are ephemeral.

PhilHofGrowYourDough

23rd Jun '16

You have not addressed the central issue of why it is better that such supposed regeneration should be done via the EU, ie. how it is better for the UK to pay a large sum into the EU and receive a small ammount back to be spent on the Welsh valleys is better than spending the money on regeneration directly ourselves?

Oh sorry I thought that was bleeding obvious! Because no UK government has ever prioritised the South Wales Valleys post Thatcher. Despite that region being the powerhouse that built the beloved Empire that many admire so much. And I'm sure there will be other communities in England that feel the same way!

At some stage this area will stop receiving money from the EU and it will be distributed to other regions to benefit them. I'm comfortable with that!

Blissgull

23rd Jun '16

Ah, thank you Phil! I'm glad we have finally got that straight.

So to summarise, your support for the EU is based upon the selfish belief that your own tiny little region is better off under the EU and you don't care about the harm it does to the rest of the coutry. Is that a fair statement?

As you wrote in an earlier post.

""Everyone is out grabbing grabbing grabbing for themselves. "

janebolacha

23rd Jun '16

Public (UK) spending in Wales as a whole has, over the last thirty years, quintupled, from about £6bn to £30bn.
That rather disproves Phil's complaint that South Wales has been neglected by successive UK governments.

http://www.ukpublicspending.co.uk/wales_spending_chart

It is also worth remembering that Wales has had its own legislative assembly since 1999. Presumably it is the Welsh Government itself which is failing the people of South Wales.

PhilHofGrowYourDough

23rd Jun '16

Actuality I'm in Cardiff which is not classed as an objective 1 or 2 area but the communities that I know through my work and my friends in the Soutth Wales Valleys are. That is the direct evidence I can speak of but no doubt EU funding also finds its way into areas such as Yorkshire, Cornwall, Scotland etc etc.

PhilHofGrowYourDough

23rd Jun '16

Hi Jane,

And how does that compare with other regions?
If you use the same source for you data you will see since 1997 (the data doesnt go back further for London) that the increase in Wales is less than London.

Regarden
Phil

janebolacha

23rd Jun '16

Comparison for comparable periods over those thirty years shows that Wales has had increases in UK public spending that are, in percentage terms, far above those for England, Scotland and Northern Ireland and this while population growth in Wales has been minimal in that period.

(PS: I'm not getting at Wales, nor getting into an argument with you, nor getting into "whataboutery", I'm simply putting forward facts).

PhilHofGrowYourDough

23rd Jun '16

Where can I see that data please jane?

I'm not looking to argue, I'm just describing my experienice and when evidence is presented I'd like to be able to examine it.

Rusty2

23rd Jun '16

I think that is incorrect, Wales, NI and Scotland get far more funding per person than England does here are some public funding figures for 2014/5: Scotland: £10,374 (16% above the UK average)• Wales: £9,904 (11% above the UK average)
• Northern Ireland £11,106 (25% above the UK average).

As for London maybe it has a higher population? Wales only has 3m people, London has over 8m.

janebolacha

23rd Jun '16

Phil,

On that same link I sent above, at bottom left there are links to spending in the different countries of the UK. for the same periods.

Jane.

PhilHofGrowYourDough

23rd Jun '16

Yes jane I just looked at that for Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales from 1986 and they've all received a 4 to 4.5 fold increase over 30 years but that doesn't mean you are tackling deprivation it just means the budget has increased. I'd imagine that is very similar fire England too.

PhilHofGrowYourDough

23rd Jun '16

The funding from the European social fund is targeted at regenerating specific areas within the UK. I'm not talking about giving money to politicians and councils it is used directly to build things and improve things in the most disadvantaged communities.

Defender16

23rd Jun '16

So, after all this discussion, which shares (small caps or otherwise) do we expect to flourish either a) after a remain outcome or b) after a leave outcome. Has the market already priced in either or both of these outcomes?

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PhilHofGrowYourDough

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