Has H&S in the workplace gone too far?

5th May '10 by davjo

11 comments 2830 reads

Clearly not in respect of the GoM blowout but what about day to day stuff? I'm thinking of the impact on business and what I see as the creation of non-jobs overseeing petty H&S regulations which creates nothing for the economy. Here's an example of what I mean from the construction industry :-

Last week my son, a sub-contractor chippy, was required to construct a timber framed wheelie bin enclosure for a block of flats. Having completed the walls/doors of the lowly 1.8m high structure, he was advised by the resident site H&S agent that he would be shown a red card if he popped on the roof sheets using a hop-up or short steps. ...a bricklayer the same day was banished from the site for elevating himself from a 2 inch slab of celotex off the scaffold. In the event, my son stood idle for half a day whilst scaffolding was erected, not only on the outside, complete with raised handrails, but also on the inside boarded out at inches below roof level. I should also mention my son got a yellow card for not wearing gloves. Two yellow cards, as in football, means a ban from the site, in this case for 3 months. Such things as wearing shorts or shirts without long sleeves, not wearing a hard hat or safety glasses also attracts a yellow card.

For me, this smacks of big government overkill. How is it this government legislates against experienced blokes doing their work off a hop-up yet freely permits young teenagers to climb rigging of a training ship from which, tragically, they occasionally fall to their death? Not that I’m advocating for even more legislation to prevent such deaths. Indeed, I think it’s important for young people to learn and understand such risks as they grow up, but the trouble is, there is so much governmental H&S interference about, youngsters are inclined to think there is little danger out there.

I believe most government H&S legislation is crafted purely to create jobs for jobs sake...like the talked about introduction of thermostatically controlled hot bath taps in every dwelling, requiring inspection once a year. All this stuff really does suck NuLabour, oozing the leaden-footed Gordon Brown's objective to suck in voters. What do you think? I reckon we could do with a high pressure hose to wash all…

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emptyend

5th May '10

Hi dj,

What do you think? I reckon we could do with a high pressure hose to wash all this crap away and invigorate some risk taking where people learn how taking chances will ultimately improve their lot!

Can't argue with that! I just hope and pray the electorate delivers such a high pressure hose on Thursday - otherwise it will simply be more of the same!!

Last year I had my chimney stack re-pointed. We used a chap who had done the same thing at our previous house some 15 years ago. It cost about £400 - and he and his sidekick were perfectly happy shinning up the ladders and perching on the roof ....they'd been doing the job for nearly 40 years!

It was the guy's last job before he retired. I had obtained other quotes from people who weren't specialists in chimneys - and they went through the rigamarole of pricing the job using full scaffolding etc. Had we gone that route it would have cost about £1400 - most of which was the cost of the scaffolding!

I've no doubt that the guy who did our work earned a decent return on the job - but I wonder if the same could have been said of whomever might have used the scaffolding method? Maybe the only building business to be in is scaffolding?

rgds

marben100

It's an easy & popular jibe to throw that H&S has "gone mad" and, of course it's all Gordon's Brown fault (rather than that of officious petty bureaucrats).... but the statistics tell a different story:

Construction has the largest number of fatal injuries of the main industry groups. In 2008/09p there were 53 fatal injuries giving at rate of 2.5 per 100 000 workers. This is the third highest rate of fatal injuries, behind agriculture and extractive industries.

The rate of fatal injuries in construction over the past decade has shown a general downward trend, the rate for 2008/09p being less than half the rate in 2000/01 (2.5 compared to 5.9 per 100,000). The rate has decreased by 34% in the past 3 years.

Regards,

Mark

davjo

G'day Mark

It's an easy & popular jibe...but the statistics tell a different story..... In 2008/09p there were 53 fatal injuries

OK, so 53 deaths is bad news but that compares to about one for every sixty death on the roads, which is considered acceptable..albeit we’d like it to be less?!! I wonder how many of these construction fatalities were either scaffolders or those working off a scaffold 1.8m high? The point I’m making is NOT to rail against reasonable regulations like enforcing the use of say 110v power tools. I’m objecting to petty stuff like the imposition of penalties for not wearing gloves or long sleeved shirts but essentially denying people to take their own measured risks like we do driving on the roads or more particularly, just like ee’s builder[man after my own heart ;-)]. If he falls off the chimney then that’s his fault. He knows what he’s doing and he’s prepared to accept the consequences. OK, you might say that if he falls and suffers serious injury, that will be an extra cost to the NHS but you ain’t seriously going to tell me that cost outweighs the cumulative costs of countless occasions where scaffolding is erected in such circumstances. Don’t get me wrong, I like scaffolding but to me it is utterly absurd to prohibit someone from working off a standing level over 0.6m above ground level without scaffolding complete with handrails.

Basically, what I’m really getting at is that Gordon Brown’s tenure in Downing Street has been dominated by his creation of non-productive jobs funded by the taxpayer, about a million from what I understand. H&S related stuff has been a key component. Note the expansion of ambulance chasing lawyers, freed up to advertise their wares...also having the effect of creating jobs in the ad industry etc.! All sorts of stuff like fitting a new window is regulated by some quango. I know I’ll do a better job than any company out there but if I do it myself, I’ll be subject to an inspection by the local Council (who frankly won’t be able to tell whether it’s a bad job or not, unless the window’s hanging out) at a cost of a £300 fee..last time I looked a couple of years ago.

At the end of the day, Brown has been a complete disaster for this country and his misguided H&S policy is indicative of a wider failing where his motives have been focused entirely upon holding power to the detriment of the population as a whole. With luck, he’ll be banished to Outer Mongolia tomorrow.

God save the King..erm Queen..erm God help us all!
;-)

6th May '10

Brown has been a complete disaster for this country and his misguided H&S policy is indicative of a wider failing where his motives have been focused entirely upon holding power to the detriment of the population as a whole.

I completely agree with the point I have emboldened, but for reasons associated with his appalling mismanagement of the economy that has left us wondering whether we'll be forced to accept austerity on a near-Greek scale. We won't find out for a while yet, whichever variety of Government we have by tomorrow lunchtime! But even I wouldn't suggest he has had much direct influence on H&S policy.

When it comes to health and safety issues, though, it comes down much more to the influence of a Labour ethos which says that "the state knows best"! THAT is what has spawned the huge range of quangos*.....and I sincerely hope that 95% of them are closed without delay (assuming that this can be done without breaching some EEC directive or another!).

*at least two of these quangos are run by people I've known and talk to from time to time. I don't think either of them are under any illusion that what they do is useful. Indeed one of them (dealing with the authorisation of staff in parts of the health service) described it to me as "money for old rope".....in other words it is basically a pointless tax - and directly on LOW-PAID workers in this case!

One of the greatest benefits I am hoping to see from today's election is a wholesale removal of unnecessary and wasteful laws, rules, practices and restrictions. We ALL know that bureaucracy has completely mushroomed over the last 20 years - and it is time to start rolling back the tide before we all get buried in mountains of virtual paperwork!

Any quango that can't put up a watertight justification for its own existance on one sheet of A4 should be abolished immediately!

Fangorn

You are both spot on. It's time for a change, and hopefully the population of this country will vote accordingly. time to roll back the influence of the state,and fire any public sector worker deemed surplus to requirements,whether that be Quango employees, or H&S.

Fingers crossed we get the right government or else this country will only continue to decline under excessive and pointless bureaucracy.

Time for ambition, energy and optimism rather than the poverty of ambition(excused by so called lack of opportunity)

Hi davjo,

Whilst I too am opposed to overregulation, ambulance chasing lawyers and other unnecessary impediments to productive work and entrepreneurialism, I very much doubt that simply replacing Brown with Cameron will bring the "sunlit uplands" that you and other posters on this thread seem to think. On the contrary, I fear that Cameron and Osborne will be even more clueless on economic management and will do even more serious damage.

Basically, what I’m really getting at is that Gordon Brown’s tenure in Downing Street has been dominated by his creation of non-productive jobs funded by the taxpayer, about a million from what I understand.

Any evidence for that assertion? Looking at the stats: http://www.statistics.gov.uk/pdfdir/pse0310.pdf yes, there has been substantial growth in the public sector but, from table 2, the chief areas of growth have been the NHS, education and the police. How many of those "non-productive jobs" are teachers, policemen, doctors & nurses? And, yes, I would like to see more of those coppers catching crooks and not bogged down with endless paperwork; and equally, teaching resources could be much better directed than at present. However, IMO, a large part of the problem is the domination of our political classes by lawyers, social scientists etc, rather than to do with any particular party. Cameron, as an ex- PR man is in that mould too. I was in business during most of the Thatcher & Major era and remember a never ending tide of increasing regulation & tax complexity then too.

Without doubt the country is living beyond its means and cuts will have to be made. Equally, however, income taxes are at historically low levels - and shocking as it may seem, I feel guilty at how low the CGT rate I currently pay on my gains is.

IMO we need a balanced approach to eliminating the deficit, not a "slash & burn" of the public sector to minimise the impact on the well off, like us.

Perhaps the real solution to the "army of bureaucrats" is for more business focussed people like us to participate in the political process? But, I guess we're too busy doing what we regard as more productive... :0)

Blimey Mark - you didn't actually believe all that guff Labour pumped through your door did you? There is no evidence that a Tory government would cut the public sector ANY harder than any of the other parties......but what they WILL be doing is looking a helluvalot harder to find situations (such as with the quangos) where public money is simply being pissed away doing nothing useful!

Its probably as well the electioneering is over for a few weeks, but I'd be interested to know whether you're in the Luton constuency that has the list of 5 candidates from sensible parties, or the one with the loony candidate list that has 12 candidates including 5 independents (and Ester Rantzen)?

Whatever the case, I hope I won't be dusting off my emigration ideas.....

cheers

The sensible one, ee. Perhaps I should have become a Monster Raving Looney and stood for them, just to liven our constituency up.

Shame that you're believing that Tory guff - but also hope you won't be dusting off your emigration ideas :)

Looks like tomorrow is going to be an "interesting" day in the markets, whatever happens in the election.

Cheers,

Mark

http://marketoracle.co.uk/Article19249.html

Sums it up for me....

HOW SWEET of gold to mark Gordon Brown's last day in power with a new all-time high against the Pound Sterling.

Indeed tomorrow does look like being an "interesting" day in the markets, outside of the election, if the absolute panic in the US is anything to go by:

The sovereign debt crisis shock waves emanating out of Greece triggered a stock market Free fall crash today as the Dow sliced through support after support to all the way below Dow 10k, hitting a low of 9,872 before the Fed as part of the Plunge Protection Team (PPT) stepped in to halt the panic selling and triggering an equally phenomenal a 700 point reversal less than half an hour from today's close.

Incredible.

7th May '10

Hiya Mark

I very much doubt that simply replacing Brown with Cameron will bring the "sunlit uplands" that you and other posters on this thread seem to think

You’re mistaken. Nowhere have I ever suggested nor believed that Cameron is some sort of Messiah to get us out of the mess we’re in. Indeed, I share your concern that the Tories will struggle to come to grips with the challenges ahead. What is very certain in my mind though, and has been for ages, is that Brown has been an unprecedented disaster for this country in just about every aspect you care to think about and he urgently needs to be flushed down the drain, preferably sped on his way to the cesspit with a skewered rod up his backside where suitable bacteria will break him down into unrecognised compost, suitable only for growing rhubarb.

I could go on and on how ghastly I think NuLabour have let the population down but I’ll spare you..and me cos it makes me so angry!!

I thoroughly endorse ee’s remarks!

On the election front, results so far look intrigueing.

Has H&S in the workplace gone too far?

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Davjo

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