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Archived articleThis is an archived article from 2025 - please note that any content within the article may be out of date.

Daily Stock Market Report (Mon 4th August 2025) - Motor finance, LLOY, CBG, SUS, TPFG, CHSS, ATG, BP., SNR, CKN

Good morning!

Motor finance: on Friday evening, the Supreme Court overturned the Court of Appeal's ruling in two out of three test cases. 

From the BBC:

Richard Coates, head of automotive at law firm Freeths, said: "The judgment opens the gateway for consumers to bring claims under the Consumer Credit Act, where particularly large commissions have been paid and the relationship is therefore unfair."

However, it is thought the ruling will prevent large-scale claims from millions of motorists.

Lloyds Banking (LON:LLOY), Close Brothers (LON:CBG) and S&U (LON:SUS) have responded today. The share price of Secure Trust Bank (LON:STB) is up 13%, but they have elected not to make an announcement.


12.15pm: wrapping it up there, thank you.

Spreadsheet accompanying this report: link (last updated: 8th July) (work-in progress).


Companies Reporting

Name (Mkt Cap)RNSSummaryOur view (Author)

BP (LON:BP.) (£63bn)

Bumerangue discovery, offshore Brazil

SP +1%
Explo well has intersected a 500m hydrocarbon column in a reservoir with a surface area of over 300sq km. The discovery is “BP’s largest in 25 years”
AMBER/RED (Roland) [no section below]
Today’s news is good as far as it goes, but discoveries alone will not be enough to reverse BP’s chronic long-term underperformance versus sector rival Shell, in my view.
More prosaically, developing a deepwater field like this typically takes years and can be expensive. In today’s update, BP notes that the well results showed high levels of carbon dioxide, which can add cost and complexity to extraction.
It’s also too soon to know what proportions of gas and oil the reservoir might contain, which could affect its commercial value.
I am more encouraged by BP’s recent appointment of former CRH CEO Albert Manifold as Chair. During a decade in charge at the cement firm, he created a lot of value for shareholders. I’m hopeful he will help guide BP into a position where it delivers more consistent shareholder returns. The StockRanks style BP as a Value Trap. With H1 results due tomorrow, I am going to leave my previous negative view unchanged for now.

Lloyds Banking (LON:LLOY) (£45bn)

Motor Finance Update

Court of Appeal ruled motor dealers do not have fiduciary duty to their customers. FCA has confirmed it will consult on a compensation scheme with a view to consumers receiving payouts from 2026. Lloyds says that “... a number of uncertainties” remain. Management expect no material change to existing £1.2bn provision for motor finance liabilities.

AMBER (Roland) [no section below]
Today’s update from Lloyds strikes a cautious note in my view, with the bank confirming that it’s still considering “multiple scenarios”. The key point to me seems to be that management does not currently expect a big change to the existing £1.2bn provision. This implies that Lloyds’ best guess at the moment is that money already set aside will be sufficient for potential compensation payouts.
Investors will need to make up their own mind – over the weekend, the FCA has said it will consult on a compensation scheme and would expect total costs to lenders to be between £9bn and £18bn. Based on this guidance and Lloyds’ large share of the UK motor finance market, I would speculate that the eventual cost to the bank could be higher, albeit still entirely manageable. I’m going to mirror the StockRanks and take a neutral view today. Lloyds shares aren’t as cheap as they were and I think there’s still the risk this could be a costly distraction for the next few years. But if I was a Lloyds shareholder, I would be happy to continue holding.

Zegona Communications (LON:ZEG) (£6.6bn)

GIC invests in Vodafone Spain FibreCo

Forming new FibreCo to combine Vodafone and MasOrange networks. GIC taking 25% equity.

HgCapital Trust (LON:HGT) (£2.34bn)

Preliminary Trading Update

Est. H1 NAV 540.2p, NAV total return -0.3%. Portfolio Investments £306m, realisations of £165m.

Clarkson (LON:CKN) (£1.1bn)

Interim Results

SP +7%
Revenue -4%, adj PBT 23.5% to £39.4m. Net own cash £206m. Interim dividend +3% to 33p, 23rd year of increases. FY outlook in line w/ H2 weighting.
Panmure Liberum upgraded forecasts: FY25E EPS: 213.3p (prev. 207.7p). FY26E EPS: 241.9p (prev. 238.0p)

AMBER (Roland holds) [no section below]
Today’s results from this shipping services group appear to be in line with the revised guidance provided in May’s profit warning. Indeed, these H1 numbers have prompted a small upgrade from broker Panmure (see left). We often see an H2 weighting as a warning of potential weakness later in the year, but Clarkson’s results are frequently H2 weighted. On balance, I’m only mildly concerned about this risk. Even so, it’s clear that trading has been affected by some of the geopolitical disruption and changes to trade flows that have resulted from the Ukraine war and President Trump’s efforts. More broadly, I think cyclical conditions are a little softer, too.
I remain a fan of this market-leading business on a long-term view (it was founded in 1852), but I think there’s still a risk of further downgrades in the near term. On balance, I’m going to upgrade one notch to neutral today.

Senior (LON:SNR) (£814m)

Interim Results Release

SP -5%
Continuing revenue +5%, adj PBT +13% to £25.3m. ROCE falls to 11.9% from 13.6%. Good Aerospace growth. FY outlook unchanged.
AMBER (Graham) [no section below]
These results are fine, with the headline numbers excluding the Aerostructure business whose sales is expected to complete by the end of the year. Roland covered this sale and the associated buyback last month. Unfortunately, the figures including Aerostructures are more exciting in terms of growth (adj. PBT +37% at constant currencies). But today’s outlook statement is fine, the adjustments applied to profit numbers are light, and the company reiterates its medium-term financial targets including adjusted ROCE of 15-20%. If the stock wasn’t already so highly-rated I’d be inclined to upgrade it but for an industrial stock, I think this may be fully-priced. The proceeds from the disposal will to a large extent be applied towards reducing outstanding net debt of £162m.

Kosmos Energy (LON:KOS) (£702m)

2nd Quarter Results

Net prod c.63.5k boepd, rev -12.9% to $393m, LBT of $64m. Completed 2 Jubilee wells.

Close Brothers (LON:CBG) (£599m)

FCA Consultation & Further Announcement

SP +19%
“Welcomes” appeal judgement, but a range of possible outcomes remain. Continuing to assess. “Looks forward to engaging with the FCA in respect of the consultation.”


AMBER/GREEN (Roland) [no section below]
Close Brothers’ update was issued before the FCA announced plans for a compensation scheme. But the Court of Appeal ruling appears to have ruled out a worst-case scenario and the bank has already been working hard to strengthen its balance sheet to support any liabilities. As with Lloyds I am not entirely confident that CBG’s existing £165m provision for compensation will be sufficient. But I think it’s probably reasonable to assume the bank will be able to manage the outcome in its slimmed-down and strengthened form. Management confirms today that the bank’s CET1 ratio is 14.3% on a pro forma basis, reflecting the sale of Winterflood and including the £165m provision.
Close’s specialist lending business has historically been more profitable than Lloyds’ mainstream retail bank. With the stock trading at less than half its book value, I think this remains worthy of further research as a potential value investment. I’m going to leave our mildly positive view unchanged today.

Auction Technology (LON:ATG) (£578m)

Acquisition

SP -20%
Buys leading list price online marketplace for vintage furniture, décor and art for $85m. Trading update: Q3 revenue improved vs H1. FY EBITDA margin now exp 42%-43% (prev. 45%-46%).

BLACK (AMBER/RED) (Roland)
Today’s acquisition announcement has a trading update tacked on the bottom that looks like a profit warning to me, suggesting weaker margins this year. I speculate that this may be due to lower average sale values.
The acquisition itself looks quite expensive, given that the business being acquired was loss-making last year. While I can see some strategic fit, I can’t help feeling ATG’s shareholders would be better served if the company stopped making acquisitions and focused on improving its execution and deleveraging.

Metals Exploration (LON:MTL) (£389m)

Gold Processing Plant in Transit to Nicaragua

Rock Creek process plant fully disassembled and loaded upon an ocean freighter.

Property Franchise (LON:TPFG) (£342m)

Half Year Trading Update

Full year trading anticipated in line with expectations. H1 revenue +50%, or +8% like-for-like.GREEN (Graham)
Not an obvious bargain at the current level but I believe this is one of the highest-quality companies I cover here, so I'd rather leave my GREEN stance unchanged. H1 went fine and the company says it's on track for the full year. For all companies in the sector, it will be interesting to see how much Q1 activity was due to the imminent Stamp Duty changes, and how much activity is left for H2.

S&U (LON:SUS) (£211m)

Supreme Court motor finance ruling

“A victory for common sense”. Any “unfair relationships” it had with customers would be minimal.GREEN (Graham)
The long-running regulatory and legal saga is coming to an end. S&U is now trading at around book value, which I think should be considered the baseline level in terms of what the company might be worth.

World Chess (LON:CHSS) (£13m)

World Chess Unveils the Tower

Player progression system. “Universal rewards layer for the chess economy”.RED (Graham) [no section below]
Chess is going from strength to strength but this doesn’t make every chess company a good investment. The online chess economy is a duopoly between the giant chess.com and the European non-profit lichess.org. For dedicated chess training, the most popular platform is probably Chessable. FIDE Online Arena/World Chess does have a niche when it comes to offering officially recognised online titles, but it has a very long way to go before it enjoys the network effects of the larger players. Financial performance has been very poor and I don’t see why that will change. Today’s update shows that it wants to have wider appeal, but there are already well-financed, highly successful incumbents in this space.This is a “Sucker Stock” with a StockRank of 3.

Goldplat (LON:GDP) (£12m)

Q4 & FY25 Trading Update

SP -5%
FY25 materially below exps, adj. PBT c. £2.6m. Changes in Ghana business model and FX losses.

Directa Plus (LON:DCTA) (£10m)

HY Trading Update

Confident of meeting exps for adjusted LBITDA in FY25 (market exps: LBTIDA €1.7m).

Graham's Section

S&U (LON:SUS)

Up 13% to £19.64 (£239m) - Supreme Court Motor Finance Ruling - Graham - GREEN

S&U are delighted with the Supreme Court ruling. Before getting into S&U’s reaction, let’s explore the ruling a little bit.

It hinged on whether or not car dealers, also acting as credit brokers, had a “fiduciary” duty to customers.

The way I always understood it, a fiduciary had to have special power over someone else’s affairs, with a high level of freedom to act on that person’s behalf. In the financial world, for example, a fund manager or a pension trustee would have fiduciary duties to the people whose money they were managing. Outside of the financial world, a doctor would have a fiduciary duty to their patients.

So for someone to have a fiduciary duty in the course of their work, it was not enough that they were simply providing an important service to someone else: there had to be something about the nature of the service which meant that conflicts of interest or other types of ethical failure could have major negative consequences on the customers, due to the amount of power they have over their customers’ affair.

As I’ve said before, I found it very strange that the Court of Appeal found that car dealers had a fiduciary duty to their customers. With all due respect to the industry, a car dealership is one of the very last places on earth where I would walk in and expect to receive fiduciary care.

The Supreme Court has now (in my view) fixed the problem created by the Court of Appeal.

In their judgement, they provide what they call “a classic description of a fiduciary”:

“A fiduciary is someone who has undertaken to act for or on behalf of another in a particular matter in circumstances which give rise to a relationship of trust and confidence. The distinguishing obligation of a fiduciary is the obligation of loyalty. The principal is entitled to the single-minded loyalty of his fiduciary.”
“A fiduciary must act in good faith; he must not make a profit out of his trust; he must not place himself in a position where his duty and his interest may conflict; he may not act for his own benefit or the benefit of a third person without the informed consent of his principal.”

When it comes to a car buyer, a car dealer, and a lender trying to make a deal, the Supreme Court concludes:

“Neither the parties themselves nor any onlooker could reasonably think that each of the participants to such a negotiation was doing anything other than considering their own interests…
“...at no time in the negotiation of any of these transactions did the dealer give any kind of express undertaking or assurance to the customer that in finding a suitable credit deal for the customer it was putting aside its own commercial interest in the transaction as seller.”

So there is no fiduciary duty, and no reasonable expectation that the car dealer isn’t attempting to make a profit.

That’s a clear win for common sense, in my book!

On the question of “bribery” (as it is alleged that a motor finance commission can constitute a “bribe” if not disclosed properly), the Supreme Court provides a lengthy discussion. But:

In every case we have cited in which a claim based on bribery was upheld, the recipient of the benefit was someone who owed a fiduciary obligation…
The conclusion that liability for bribery… is dependent on the recipient of the bribe being a fiduciary, means that the law avoids a problem which would otherwise arise

So if there is no fiduciary relationship, the question of bribery does not arise.

It all seems perfectly logical to me, and S&U agrees. Here is Chairman Anthony Coombs:

This decision is a victory for common sense. It will significantly boost confidence throughout the motor finance industry and benefit lenders and consumers alike in attracting investment and increasing competition. As such, it is entirely consistent with the Treasury's recent emphasis on regulation which encourages growth and which will, in the words of the Financial Conduct Authority, "ensure the integrity of the motor finance market, so that it works well for future consumers."

The CEO of S&U’s motor finance arm, Advantage Finance, also welcomes the news.

There is still the possibility of some redress being provided for some customers, but I agree that any impact on S&U should be minimal. Everything I knew about Advantage Finance suggests to me that it’s a responsible lender that treats its customers very fairly.

From today’s RNS:

The Supreme Court, however, did uphold the lower court's view that commission paid by lenders which was inflated relative to the total cost of credit or which misled unsophisticated customers, may lead to an "unfair relationship" under section 148 of the Consumer Credit Act. Advantage notes that the FCA has announced its intention to consult on a redress scheme which covers both DCA arrangements and cases possibly involving an unfair relationship. Advantage reiterates that it has never used discretionary commission arrangements and feels very confident that its longstanding quality of customer service will mean that any unfair relationships found would be minimal.

Graham’s view

The long-running regulatory and legal saga is coming to an end, which is great news for S&U (let me repeat that I think S&U has been entirely innocent of any wrongdoing all along).

AD_4nXfHLg5sTLYSrSARS4qgA_nlwW9QUssRXR57tuHUsXVSfN9R35NSwwjzLs6_z7zWaPZkKNneWo3fwjvB3rA0W8yOaLSB3vm1EqvIxx0NAgndoqBfqeuBg3w-zPUQpNTw54LrPOmD?key=zgev4aNuZruHUnb-lX81pQ

The company’s market cap has recovered now to its last-published net asset value (£238m of Jan 2025) and from my view that’s the baseline in terms of what the company is worth. With excellent management, a high degree of shareholder orientation, and continued growth prospects in both of its divisions, I am happy to stay GREEN on this. I note also a StockRank of 97!

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Property Franchise (LON:TPFG)

Up 1% to 540.5p (£344m) - Half Year Trading Update - Graham - GREEN

The Property Franchise Group PLC, the UK's largest multi-brand property franchisor, announces its trading update for the six months ended 30 June 2025 (the "Period"), ahead of publishing its interim results on Wednesday 10 September 2025.

Let’s check in on how TPFG is doing.

The merged with Belvoir in March 2024, so there has been a step-change in the size of the overall group, and I'd suggest focusing on like-for-like figures today.

Key points:

  • Revevenue +50% (£40.3m), like-for-like revenues +8%.

  • Lettings like-for-like franchising fees +5%

  • Sales like-for-like franchising fees +18%

The bounce in like-for-like sales fees is a nice sign of activity in the market. Lettings can be expected to remain more stable, on average. But the company does acknowledge that higher sales activity was pulled forward to Q1 by the Stamp Duty changes.

H1 cash generation is £15m.

Net debt is £10.8m, which is up since Dec 2024 (£9m). That is  a little strange, given the cash generation figure we've just mentioned. The company points to “deferred consideration for GPEA, advance tax payments and H1 working capital movements”.

GPEA owned The Guild of Property Professionals and Fine & Country estate agents, and the deferred payment for that acquisition was £5m.

Current trading and outlook: in line with expectations for the full year.

Looking ahead to the remainder of 2025, the focus for H2 will be on continuing to deliver the additional income opportunities resulting from the scale of the enlarged Group…
In anticipation of the upcoming Renters Rights Bill, the rollout of the Privilege programme, to both protect income and provide growth opportunities in H2 and beyond, is well underway and provides an attractive option to landlords considering converting to the agent managed property model.
The combination of further anticipated interest rate cuts and a strong sales pipeline of £43.5m (Dec 2024: £33.4m), balanced by a softening on new instructions provides confidence in delivering planned income in H2 in Sales MSF and for the Financial Services division.

Graham’s view

As I've said before, I believe that this is one of the highest-quality companies under coverage here, and the addition of Belvoir has only increased its attractiveness, in my view, as increased scale improves its competitiveness in the market and cost efficiencies.

The “management service fees” (MSF) it earns from franchising are paid promptly and are pure profit with little direct overhead.

And the combination of sales, lettings and financial services (helped greatly by the addition of Belvoir) provide a nice mix of exposure to different elements of property market activity. It’s still going to have an element of cyclicality, of course.

At the current valuation it’s not as cheap as it used to be, but I prefer to stay GREEN on high-quality stocks unless they are obviously overpriced.

AD_4nXekw9g-siMHSBqOevsLdrb-kz6XAjucLIJvq6i3qybkvHpiBptu5TUwOufan4Vy4aI9dreXqJEr0fX8wpBFmZQ_4juVQ3hpuF2Uud6c2_ED5dP9NxsokAVGUyHTd9i074B9951p?key=zgev4aNuZruHUnb-lX81pQ


Roland's Section

Auction Technology (LON:ATG)

Down 20% to 382p (£460m) - Acquisition - Roland - BLACK (AMBER/RED)

London, United Kingdom, 4 August 2025 - Auction Technology Group plc ("ATG", "the Company", "the Group") (LON: ATG), operator of world-leading marketplaces for curated online auctions, announces the acquisition of Chairish LLC (the "Acquisition"), a leading list price online marketplace for vintage furniture, décor and art, for a purchase price of $85 million.

Markets do not seem to be impressed with today’s acquisition announcement. However, I suspect the sell-off we’ve seen this morning may also be linked to an apparent profit warning that’s been tagged onto the end of today’s update – poor form when this is not reflected in the RNS title.

Let’s start with a look at this trading update and then review today’s acquisition.

Trading update: this is brief but and a little vague, but my conclusion is that it’s a downgrade to full-year guidance:

  • Q3 revenue growth “slightly improved” versus H1, with strong growth in shipping revenue;

  • Full-year EBITDA margin is now expected to be 42%-43% (previously 45% to 46%), before the impact of today’s acquisition.

I had to check May’s full-year results to find previous guidance, as this wasn’t referenced today. The company says the revised margin guidance is due to revenue mix. I have taken this as meaning that lower-margin shipping charges have provided a boost to revenue, but revenue from higher-margin product sales may not have improved.

Last year’s results highlighted a fall in the average value of items sold. My guess is that this trend may have continued, or at least failed to improve so far this year.

Estimates: I don’t have access to broker notes for ATG. However, assuming revenue estimates remain broadly in line with the Stocko consensus of $183m, I’d estimate this could cut EBITDA forecasts from c.$83m to around $78m – a c.6% cut.

Let’s move on and take a look at today’s acquisition.

Acquisition: ATG is acquiring US online art and antique marketplace Chairish LLC for $85m, funded with an unspecified mix of debt and balance sheet cash. This is expected to leave ATG with increased leverage of 2.3x EBITDA.

At first sight this acquisition looks expensive to me – Chairish generated an adjusted EBITDA loss of $0.4m last year, on revenue of $51.2m. We aren’t given any profit figures from further down the P&L.

Although the business being acquired has gross assets of $18.4m, we are not told what the net asset position might be.

Rationale: ATG says Chairish will add 4.5m monthly visitors to its existing web traffic for the Art & Antique (A&A) sector of 25.5m visitors per month. This is expected to drive cross-selling and increase the firm’s coverage of areas where it’s currently underweight.

For context, A&A is the group’s largest segment and generated just over half of total revenue last year.

Chairish will also expand ATG’s access to the list price (dealer) art and antiques market, complementing the group’s existing weighting towards the auction market.

Personally, I would probably question how many of these visitors might be visiting both companies’ websites already. Speaking as someone who was once involved in this sector, I would guess that in areas where there’s inventory overlap, many of these visitors might already be using both sites.

Expected contribution: Chairish is expected to be “adjusted EBITDA positive” in FY26 (i.e. Sept 25-Sept 26) and is expected to be accretive to adjusted EPS in FY27.

In addition, ATG says it has identified around $8m of “high confidence operational synergies” that provide a clear path to improved profitability “by FY27”. My reading of this is that the company may not make a positive contribution to EPS without these improvements.

Looking even further ahead, management expects this acquisition to generate a return on invested capital above the group’ cost of capital by FY28 – potentially three years in the future.

Roland’s view

In November last year, I took a neutral view on Auction Technology, commenting that the shares weren’t cheap but that there were some signs of improving profitability.

In May, Mark then downgraded to AMBER/RED. He highlighted the combination of higher price and declining momentum and suggested this was one High Flyer investors might want to consider avoiding.

Subsequent events suggest both of our previous calls were well timed. After performing strongly into the new year, both the share price and the StockRank have declined since Mark’s call in May. The stock is now styled as a Falling Star:

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My understanding is that ATG does have quite good scale in its core markets. I don’t think it’s a terrible business.

However, today’s news increases my scepticism about this company and its management. This isn’t the first acquisition since ATG floated in 2021 – prior to today, the balance sheet carried nearly $600m in goodwill, resulting in a negative tangible asset value.

The group’s operating margin of c.20% may seem impressive. But the low returns on capital employed suggests to me that past acquisitions are not yet generating enough profit to justify the price paid for them. I suspect Chairish could extend this problem:

AD_4nXeFoYlJUuMxpWFW5G169q-Zw1DDX0xq9rw8jNp88nY_f3PEBstnWb0jJMkcOcUHpghG9q1rQ3e91qY8BrItMa6CQ1KdEFcYSqSngQaGB2scnV-eooOU1unJBJ2hr9tbns4GjIzq5w?key=zgev4aNuZruHUnb-lX81pQ

Personally, I think shareholders would probably be better served if management stopped making expensive acquisitions and focused on sweating the firm’s existing assets and excelling at marketing and execution.

I’m also a little uncomfortable with the increase in leverage that will result from this deal. While 2.3x EBITDA is unlikely to be problematic, in my view, it’s worth noting that finance costs consumed 40% of operating profit last year. I expect the total may be higher this year, perhaps resulting in a hit to EPS until Chairish’s profitability improves.

I’m going to leave our AMBER/RED view unchanged today. The evidence shows that companies often underperform after an initial downgrade, so I think it makes sense to be cautious for now.

Disclaimer

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61 comments


Avatar for The Phoenix

sorry wrong daily thread doh.

0
Avatar for R Dewsbury

Auction Technology (LON:ATG) has several flaws in its business operations with The Saleroom. I use the site for auction alerts and browsing catalogues but I bid directly with the auction house in order to avoid the fees added by The Saleroom. The rival platform Easy Live is also slightly cheaper. Most auction houses when asked recommend using these methods.

8
Avatar for AcornInvestor

Another great report today Graham and Roland, thank you. I'm admiring the way that you sift through the large amount of data to highlight the pertinent points, in particular the risks which may not be highlighted/apparent in the RNS itself. I am also coming to very much appreciate your cautious approach as I have a tendency to believe the PR hype and be a little too trigger-happy to my own financial detriment. Thanks again.

25
Avatar for Charles Mitchell

Gore Street Energy Storage Fund (LON:GSF) RM webinar link- do sign up, should be interesting ! A presentation about their plans for GSF. RM are a shareholder in GSF and have called an EGM to replace 2 existing directors.

This webinar is open only to professional investors and self-certified sophisticated Investors, as defined under the Financial Services and Markets Act 2000 (FSMA) and
related regulations, and is intended solely for individuals who are resident in the
United Kingdom or in jurisdictions where participation would not breach local
securities laws. Verification of investor status may be required upon registration.
Investors may sign up by following the link below:
https://us06web.zoom.us/webina...
9am, Wednesday 6th August


3
Avatar for Gung Ho

I received the B&M European Value Retail SA (LON:BME) dividend today into my Interactive Investor SIPP and 15% of it was missing. I called II customer service and they said there's a 15% withholding tax on Luxembourg headquartered companies.

Does this sound right? I've never noticed it in the past....

1
Avatar for timarr

I received the B&M European Value Retail SA (LON:BME) dividend today into my Interactive Investor SIPP and 15% of it was missing. I called II customer service and they said there's a 15% withholding tax on Luxembourg headquartered companies. Does this sound right? I've never noticed it in the past....

Yes. From the preliminary results:

3. Dividends are stated as gross amounts before deduction of Luxembourg withholding tax which is currently 15%

Part of the justification for the upcoming redomicile to Jersey is that this will no longer be payable.

timarr

17
Avatar for Gung Ho

Ah OK - Thanks Timarr

0
Avatar for Joanne Yorkston

you couldn't take a look at th below could you? Logistics Development (LON:LDG)

LDG – Logistics Development 

1
Avatar for chris2021

May the unsophisticated customer continue to exist in large numbers, so those of us who do due diligence, crosscheck facts and undertake pricing comparisons can continue to enjoy the fruits of our labours. 

3
Avatar for Yellowstone Advisory

For followers of Capita (LON:CPI) , we are delighted that Adolfo Hernandez, Chief Executive Officer and Pablo Andres, Chief Financial Officer will present at a webinar for Private investors on Tuesday 14 August at 2pm. The HY results are being released on 5 August so there will be lots to update on.

The shares have performed well since the consolidation in April and it will be interesting to see if the operational performance has kept up with the share price performance. You can register for the webinar here.

https://us02web.zoom.us/webinar/register/8317542978193/WN_oJeRI00_Ri6RZ4baSA_VXQ

5
Avatar for Poker111

Can you check the date. 14/8 isn’t a Tuesday.

0
Avatar for Spender71

From my reading of the  Supreme Court decision, the only ground  for a claim now (apart from DCA’s) was that if there was a personal loan arrangement alongside the car finance agreement. This personal loan arrangement then engages the Consumer Credit Act and the whole deal becomes subject to the unfairness considerations under that Act.

 So, on the face of it, the number of potential claims seems limited.   The FCA have estimated compensation of up to 18m although I am not sure how they arrive at any estimate. Do they know the number of DCA’s and the amounts involved or how many personal loans were taken out and the amount lent?  Have they any idea of whether a particular arrangement was unfair within the meaning of the Act?

The FCA talks in generality about settling claims but acknowledged that every claim has its own particular set of facts governing liability. Who will be the arbiter of the merits of a claim? 

The FCA statement seems to convey undue optimism on claimants at the cost of the share price of the affected companies at least in the short term.


2
Avatar for rhomboid1

One overlooked issue here is the FCA iIRC is itself a beneficiary of inflated commissions as every  regulated  entity including car dealers does a monthly report on deals written & commissions earn’t and pays a % Levy to the FCA on those amounts. No wonder they looked the other way for so long. Bet consumers don’t see any of that money returned.

Charlie Munger would be unsuprised.

8
Avatar for Spender71

No wonder they felt confident in estimating the total compensation.

1
Avatar for rmillaree

From my reading of the Supreme Court decision, the only ground for a claim now (apart from DCA’s) was that if there was a personal loan arrangement alongside the car finance agreement. This personal loan arrangement then engages the Consumer Credit Act and the whole deal becomes subject to the unfairness considerations under that Act.

do you have any links to substantiate that ?  the link i read seemed to suggest didnt seem to mention loan type - simply that if loan was excessive and not flagged up transparently then there may be an issue still?

there wasnt alot of detail i must admit - so it might be sub group and that wasnt confirmed in the source i read.

https://www.lawgazette.co.uk/n...

per martin lewis you tube statement today he seems to think that total cost to industry may be £9 bill  to £18 bill max (excl comp int) now down from £50 bill - still not insignificant but hopefully only targetted at those that clearly took the micky or used DCA's

Its credit to S&U have updated today - ref the unfair stuff - they have been bold enough to say that they feel any issues would be minimal - its a shame other lenders couldnt do the same. For those that have remained silent i would feel less confident ref the possibilty of their unfair practices not having material redress needed - i suspect that amounts in that regard will be manegable for most perhaps?

per S&U

The Supreme Court, however, did uphold the lower court's view that commission paid by lenders which was inflated relative to the total cost of credit or which misled unsophisticated customers, may lead to an "unfair relationship" under section 148 of the Consumer Credit Act. Advantage notes that the FCA has announced its intention to consult on a redress scheme which covers both DCA arrangements and cases possibly involving an unfair relationship. Advantage reiterates that it has never used discretionary commission arrangements and feels very confident that its longstanding quality of customer service will mean that any unfair relationships found would be minimal.

 

3
Avatar for Spender71

The reference to loan type was in reference to Johnson’s successful claim under the Consumer Credit Act. The Supreme Court website has a pdf of the full judgement. 

0
Avatar for rmillaree

at face value looking at the summary johnson won and fisrtrand lost and fisrtrand had offered an hp agreement (their might be loans too) - without digging into detail i might be missing something but i cant see anything to suggest that hire purchase agreements are not a  problem and loans are - do you have any link to backup your viewpoint here as withoyt digging through the detail of along case it doesnt to obviously be as you are advising it is?


https://supremecourt.uk/upload...

340. The relationship between Mr Johnson and FirstRand was unfair within the
meaning of section 140A of the CCA, by reason in particular of the size of the
commission, the failure to disclose the commission, and the concealment of the
commercial tie between the dealer and FirstRand. Mr Johnson is therefore entitled to
succeed in his claim on that basis. However, the order made in his favour by the Court of
Appeal was vitiated by mistakes. FirstRand’s appeal must therefore be allowed so as to
substitute an order in Mr Johnson’s favour on different terms from that made by the Court
of Appeal.

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Avatar for Spender71

Please refer to paras 291 to 338 of the judgement.

0
Avatar for rmillaree

I have read paras 291 to 338 and that doesnt help one iota - i might have glossed over the importance of the loan being a loan rather than an hp ?  if you can help me  where does it say the fact this is a personal loan makes any difference here compared to say an hp agreement.

Note its clear this person took out a personal loan - that looks likely due to the fact that the pimped up price including the high commission meant the vehicle didnt have the necessary value that an hp could be approved. So that seemed like it was to get the job done.

If the same couldnt potentially apply to similar rates for an hp agreement  - i would have expected that would be spelled out somewhere here.

Note it looks like the rate of finance charged for the hp here was much lower than the loan - so the lack of issues with the hp at face value look like a non issue as they didnt take the piss with the hp.

all the worse here if the sales price being pimped up by the commission if the only reason for the existence of the need for the loan in the fisrt place - in that regard it does seem like a stich up job.

I would agree its probably not very common to have hp and loan at same time ref vehicle purchase  - so i would agree this could be a niche situation perhaps - but i am not going to presume  that some companies didnt charge excessive rates on hp if there was only an hp in place.




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Avatar for Spender71

The personal loan element engaged the Consumer Credit Act provisions so the unfairness principles under the Act applied.  Hence all the circumstances of the transaction including the  representations inducing  the car hire agreement became relevant.  So apart from the DCA’s thie personal loan element would appear to be crucial to gauging whether compensation is payable. 

0
Avatar for rmillaree

i have not seen anywhere that an hp is treated different to a loan here though ref the Consumer Credit Act.

what seemed different between the loan and hp here was specifically that the excessive rates were only charged on loan only and not the hp - to me its obvious here that the hp wasnt excessive on basic pribciples that rate charged was reasonable - unlike then loan

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Avatar for Spender71

Para 340 sums it up.  Considerations of unfairness including the size of the commission are relevant as the CCA applied.

0
Avatar for rmillaree

Para 340 sums it up. Considerations of unfairness including the size of the commission are relevant as the CCA applied.

I dont give up easily here - you have evidenced nothing to me that says this issue is only where there are connected loans and its only the loan thats the problem not the hp.

Yes i know in this case the hp was not a problem - to me that was purely down to reasonable rates being charged on the hp 

Looking at 340 thereb is zlich that says there is only an issue when there is a loan associated to the hp.

The relationship between Mr Johnson and FirstRand was unfair within themeaning of section 140A of the CCA, by reason in particular of the size of thecommission, the failure to disclose the commission, and the concealment of thecommercial tie between the dealer and FirstRand. Mr Johnson is therefore entitled tosucceed in his claim on that basis. However, the order made in his favour by the Court ofAppeal was vitiated by mistakes. FirstRand’s appeal must therefore be allowed so as tosubstitute an order in Mr Johnson’s favour on different terms from that made by the Courtof Appeal.

If i ask copilot  if s140a of the cca applies to hire purchase agreements it says Yes - full details below.

I dont want to normally rely on ai to back up my case - but i really think the onus is on you to backup your assertion that there is no problem with any hp agreements - when this judement doesnt seem to make any such assertion and preuming copilot is right 140a applies to any credit agreement. 

In summary i am sticking to my guns that you have gotten this completely wrong - if i am wrong perhaps someone else can intervene with some useful evidence.



Yes, Section 140A of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 (CCA) does apply to hire purchase agreements.

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Avatar for Spender71

It is not my intent to persuade anyone. Believe what you like. Please do not bother to reply. 

1
Avatar for Christopher McGlone

I find it bizarre (and worrying) that ANY court could conclude a fiduciary duty was owed by any party in any such transaction.  I think it sets a worrying precedent for future transactional relationships and leaves the door open for retail customers to seek redress almost anywhere in the commercial world where they end up feeling dissatisfied with decisions THEY made.  It supports (reinforces) the blame culture, the entitled generation and the now very familiar default to blaming somebody else for everything and anything.  It simply encourages more of the same.  Don’t worry, the system will hold somebody else to account for lack of due diligence on YOUR part.

I also dislike the use of the term ‘unsophisticated customer’.  I think this is a disgraceful (mis)use of what could be construed a derogatory term and within a legal, objective context.  So, can i use this reference in my future claim?  I put it to you m’lud that the primary basis of my defence (claim) is that i am an unsophisticated thicko when it comes to matte of finance.  How the hell do you ‘prove’ unsophistication?  Class.  Education (lack of).  Or just not being interested or bothering your backside to inform and educate yourself on matters very relevant and pertinent to your financial well-being?  

If honest, i think i know fine well what the Judge means when adopting such a term.  I just think it is extremely unhelpful in a judgement that is supposed to assist in the future resolution of this issue.  And a bit derogatory into the bargain!  Maybe it might also make some people think twice when borrowing to buy a 50 grand shiny new BMW on a 20 grand annual salary?  No chance.  And ok, hands up, maybe that was a touch derogatory. 

23
Avatar for The Boon Fund

Maybe next the Courts or the Regulatory Bodies will deem that car finance is "too complex" for the "unsophisticated customer" and therefore they should be banned.

Somewhat like how options and derivative trading cannot be sold to unsophisticated investors (unless you're sophisticated enough to know you have to tick the right boxes when signing up....)

We're perhaps moving to a world where the State has a greater say in who can and cannot buy what goods and services... rather than taking a Caveat Emptor approach.... 

5
Avatar for littledavesab

Possibly moving (slowly) to a world where car salesmen are not allowed to offer finance at point of sale.    Similar things have been done in the past  eg banning Travel Agents from selling travel insurance in their shops.  

Definitely moving to a world where there are more boxes to tick when arranging finance.

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Avatar for Spender71

Agreed. A very snobby remark from Lord Reid. I suppose you could call him unsophisticated driving his BMW around without a clue what was going on under the bonnet.

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Avatar for rmillaree

I find it bizarre (and worrying) that ANY court could conclude a fiduciary duty was owed by any party in any such transaction

the facts are that these finance companies that are getting taken to task have breached the consumer credit act (or other rules) - those rules are laid out and known to exist.  The judgement today is sensibly trying to find the right position for those that should have followed the rules and didnt.

You might not like that those rules are in place  - but you seem to be ignoring that the rules do exist and have existed for many years.

I for one like the fact that rules are in place for lenders so they act in fair  and reasonable manner.

Being blunt not sure what your rant is here - is it about the consumer credit act being unfair? - or are you simply ingoring the fact it exists and that you are talking about some mythical position where these finance companies are wrongly being screwed when thats not the case. imho its clear that where they are being taken to task there is a level of wrondoing here. Todays update has thankfully taken the stuff that would have been ott of the table - whilst taking to task those that acted in shyster manner.

I for one applaud that the fca take a tough line here - albeit i will slate them for letting what has gone on go on for so long without taking action sooner - in that regard it reflects very badly that the FCA tolerated the shyster behaviour under their watch for so long - that can be endemic if one company pushes the line and doesnt get taken to task it can end up that others will go - oh i will have a bit of that.

5
Avatar for Christopher McGlone

I am a staunch and enthusiastic advocate/supporter of regulatory bodies who’s purpose is the protection of the public at large;  perfectly content with the consumer credit act as well.   My whole working life was spent  in a profession hugely reliant on overarching rules, regulations and legislation which, when it was routinely eroded and in some cases dismantled, many people died as a consequence.  Both within the profession and on the streets and buildings of our towns and cities.  Grenfell Tower being as good an example as you’ll get.  I am also very intolerant (by my own admission) of those same Bodies residing over changes that are already well past their sell-by date;  Tombstone or stable door legislation as we called it.  And if the primary aim and principles of the Regultory Body had been met and complied with, would not be required at all.  


And i do have a problem grasping the fiduciary duty aspect.  It may be that i don’t understand the legal definition;  I’ll concede that.  However, i just can’t see how this is possible in a retail transaction, given its definition.

I also watched the interview with the Head of the FCA when he was asked about retrospection and the dates lenders  will be required to address.  It now seems evident many of those records for customers will no longer exist.  Therefore, how will they achieve this? (Did the new GDPRegs create this problem?).   He simply shrugged his shoulders and didn’t really know.  So let’s  burden the industry with a problem they cannot solve?  Yeah, that’ll turn out well . . . . . .

And roll on the High Court test case on what constitutes the ‘unsophisticated customer’.  I’m pretty sure at the moment, it’s every single person who took a car loan and thought they were hard done by.  You’d certainly tick that box if you thought it improved your chances of compensation and in any case, in the absence of categoric evidence to the contrary, who’s to say you aren’t?

Personally, I’m somewhat relieved that I own only S&U.  I hope that my main interest is as a spectator on the sidelines.  Caveat - i did purchase 2 cars in the past 10yrs using PCP contracts.  And as a diligent consumer, i still have all the paperwork  : - )


1
Avatar for rmillaree

And roll on the High Court test case on what constitutes the ‘unsophisticated customerI’m pretty sure at the moment, it’s every single person who took a car loan and thought they were hard done by. You’d certainly tick that box if you thought it improved your chances of compensation and in any case, in the absence of categoric evidence to the contrary, who’s to say you aren’t?

This is completely wrong only one case   was won and the others were thrown out - so ignoring dca cases it’s now a high level of evidence of wrongdoing that is needed  - the logic for the case the consumer won has been fully disclosed - that’s why following the. News on Friday informed experts are saying payouts are only likely to be perhaps 20% of might have been expected had the other cases been won by consumers  - S&uwould not have been confident enough to make the statement they did if it was anything like what you describe - they don’t have the the dca cases tho  so they aren’t in the naughty boys group 

2
Avatar for Mark Carter

CKN ... since nobody has mentioned it ... shares up around 7% today on issuing interims. "expects year to be H2-weighted" H1 underlying pretax falls 23.4%. Revs down 4%

This one crossed my radar on account of it being a new(ish) position by Nick Train. Quality score of 96, which is very good. ROE has been about 12.7%, which is good too, confirming it as a quality company. Net cash position.

EV/EBITDA of 5.1, which makes it look pretty cheap.

It passes my dividend growth screen, having a yield of 3.3%, good quality and high interest cover. Revenues and EPS has at least doubled over 10 years, which I also look for too.

Good quality company at a reasonable price.

I don't hold.

5
Avatar for bohenie

Hmm - |I sold out a while ago after Paul Scott mentioned the issue of director earnings/shares. The fact that nick Train has bought in also puts me off

2
Avatar for Phil117

With all respect to Paul his gripe about Clarkson (LON:CKN) struck me as somewhat bizarre at the time. Basically - the employees get paid a lot / too much. Well yes. It’s essentially a people business. You could say the same about Investment Banks, Law Firms, etc. The main ‘assets’ walk in and out every day, and skim a lot of the cream before returns to shareholders. But Mr Market is not entirely insane - this is reflected in the valuation. As Mark says, this is quality / historic business is priced very cheap. 12x PE. A lovely double digit Operating Free Cash Flow yield, a decent dividend, strong balance sheet, excellent ROCE. The long term share price performance has been good, which suggests enough cream is flowing to shareholders to generate positive TSR. There are obviously key person risks, geopolitical risks. But Paul’s one note dismissal is massively over simplified in this case. All IMHO. I am biased as a satisfied LT shareholder 

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Avatar for Tortoise investor

Interesting chart from Ipsos MORI today. Presumably there is some correlation between economic optimism and consumer spending? 

490b4623-e60b-45de-9632-80849d197e93.png

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Avatar for The Boon Fund

Even worse than when the survey was run during the depths of COVID (Dec-20)!

No wonder savings rates have gone up....

Housebuying volumes, especially new, still in the doldrums...

Caveat is that Personal Finance optimism is different than Economy optimism. I would look at the latest GfK survey data, which has them split apart, which shows a diverging trend.

5
Avatar for JPIM

Tasty (LON:TAST) A small company operating in an unloved sector but a large fundraise of c.£9m+ vs the current size of the business (mrkt cap = £1.2m). Heavy hitting names joining the board and investing. Any views? 

3
Avatar for snowdrop

S&U (LON:SUS) "With all due respect to the industry, a car dealership is one of the very last places on earth where I would walk in and expect to receive fiduciary care."  Graham you are not alone! It says a lot about the state of the nation when the lower Courts think 3M Brits are so thick they think a car salesman is on their side.

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Avatar for Graham Neary

Cheers snowdrop! There was something anti-cultural about the Court of Appeal finding that car salesmen and saleswomen were to be held to the standard of doctors or pension trustees.

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Avatar for Christopher McGlone

I did chuckle at that snowdrop 

6
Avatar for PitBullCH

And yet most car buyers probably do think along these lines: that the salesman is their friend and together they will get one over the manufacturer and / or (more likely) the salesperson’s manager (an effective salesperson will manipulate them towards this thought).

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Avatar for snowdrop

I don't object to them being careless and silly, I object to caveat emptor being ignored by them and their behaviour then being rewarded by state funded bodies(again). DYOR should be the norm.

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Avatar for jamesalastair

Classic comment.

1
Avatar for fred9566

Good solid results from Property Franchise (LON:TPFG) this morning (I hold ) and would be interested if you agree

7
Avatar for Richard

Market no likey Auction Technology (LON:ATG) deal announced this morning!

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Avatar for Peter T

Hi Richard, Auction Technology (LON:ATG) - is the line "As a result of revenue mix, we now expect margin to be 42% to 43% for the full year, before the impact of the acquisition." that is the problem? A downgrade.

0
Avatar for Tortoise investor

Over the weekend I looked at Polar Capital Holdings (LON:POLR) latest assets under management figure by fund and trust and estimate their AuM at 30-Jul has increased by about 6.5% since the end of Q1 (June). Their share price has gone down during that time.  I reckon their AuM is around £24.7bn versus Equity Development estimates of £23.4bn for the end of FY26 although I can see from Stocko's handy broker data that other brokers, which we don't have access to, have increased their estimates recently.

All of the Polar Capital Holdings (LON:POLR) data is available on their website or FT.com/other financial sites - you just have to spend about half an hour clicking through. I would love to find a way to automate it but haven't yet.  Polar Capital Holdings (LON:POLR) have a limited number of funds which makes it easier - trying to do this for e.g. Jupiter Fund Management (LON:JUP) would be a lot more time consuming! 

48
Avatar for Bouden54

Looking on the Polar website it still seems to be showing fund data as at 30 June  - eg the Global Technology fund showing AUM at 5.6bn as at 30 June. Where are you seeing data for 31 July? I fully expect AUM to be higher given strong market in July, but can't see that the figures have yet been published.

Polar Capital Funds plc - Global Technology Fund

2
Avatar for Tortoise investor

Hi Bouden54 - sorry I should have been clearer. I use Polar to get their accurate quarter end data and Morningstar for the latest data for comparison. They have recently updated their website layout and now don't make it explicitly clear the latest fund size is of 1 trading day ago although other data explicitly is and sites using their APIs say the latest data is one trading day.

I noticed one minor error in my manual data this morning and I used the double-checking opportunity to look at the latest data for 31-July (the above data is 30-Jul). Therefore the most accurate up-to-date figure is AUM has increased by 5.44% since 30-June - meaning AuM should be around £24.5bn. 

4
Avatar for Bouden54

Great thanks for getting back to me, It was my understanding that external data sources, such as Morningstar, would not have access to AUM and fund flow data until it is officially published. I might be wrong on that, but I've always waited until Polar publish their new factsheets. Perhaps they use some sort of estimated figure?

0
Avatar for Tortoise investor

Yes I have no idea how they calculate that if I am honest, at least in terms of accounting for client inflows and outflows - I've been taking it at face value on the basis a data provider like Morningstar would be careful about publishing data that's not accurate. As you say, it might be a projection perhaps based on market movement only. Towards the end of Q2 perhaps I can note what Morningstar has recorded and then compare that with the official data at Polar to see if they differ. Unfortunately I didn't keep hold of end of Q1 morningstar data and didn't think to compare and contrast at the time. 

2
Avatar for bohenie

I think you will find that Morning Star does have access to the very latest data - BUT its also split amongst the share classes - Income and Accumulating etc so to do a proper job of adding it all together requires some patience. Good luck - I am happy to take it that Polar Capital Holdings (LON:POLR) is doing well!

4
Avatar for Tortoise investor

Luckily Polar doesn't have that many funds so it takes me about half an hour to do. Tempted to have a go at Jupiter but their list of funds runs to pages! 

1
Avatar for Bouden54

For Polar I  just look at the biggest few funds - that usually gives you a pretty good idea. Not looked at Jupiter before - from memory they don't have any particular funds that dominate so might be a long-winded exercise to look at all of them (and even then they probably have non-retail funds that you can't see)

1
Avatar for af20001

The published NAV should include all fund flows.

The only question is the frequency of subs/reds in & out of the fund - some funds allow daily flows, some others might only be monthly. That would usually be detailed on the factsheet.

0
Avatar for Tim Boucher

Am I being over optimistic in reading the RNS from S&U (LON:SUS) as stating little/no liability for redress? (I hold)

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Avatar for Graham Neary

That's my belief Tim, but I'm not a lawyer! Your guess is likely as good as mine.

7
Avatar for topvest

I think S&U (LON:SUS) summed it up well...“A victory for common sense”. Compensation should only be due when customers were treated unfairly (i.e. when they were put on a higher interest rate so the sales person could earn a higher undisclosed commission) and not when they had the best deal, but the commission was not disclosed which was complying with the law at the time. Compensation culture is getting out of hand in my view.  Also, if the original judgement had stood it would have impacted insurance, holidays, phones, you name it....leading to financial instability.

The other slightly irritating point on the whole subject is that it wasn't the banks that took the money (just set the unequitable commission structure) - it was the rather unethical sales person at the car dealership who pocketed the money, and they get off with no liability!

Anyway, it sounds like provisions are about at the right level for now until the FCA publishes the compensation scheme. I don't believe that S&U had discretionary commissions, so shouldn't have a material liability.

42
Avatar for Archer

Agreed at the end of the day if the purchaser wasn’t happy with the deal they were offered they could walk away and go to another dealer.  There is no obligation on car purchases, people should always get multiple quotes not just one!  I’m sure other loans from third parties will fit the same behind the scenes activities -it’s capitalism. 

14
Avatar for rmillaree

The other slightly irritating point on the whole subject is that it wasn't the banks that took the money (just set the unequitable commission structure) - it was the rather unethical sales person at the car dealership who pocketed the money, and they get off with no liability!

Errrr nonsense unfotunately.

The banks clearly took then money it was them offering the finance - they just decided to hand 50%-75% back to salesman - that got them the deal. In that regard the salesman simply took the deal being offered - its not their fault it was not implemented fairly that wasnt their job to do.

Its always the finance companies name on the tin - and it is them that have the legal obligation to not engineer an unfair releationship in that regard ref the finance they provide end of.

If a finance company was happy to charge  customesr flat 20% apr that was unrelated to the risk and give 75% of the apr charged back to the "salesman" - and it was clear that this arragement was done behind the back of the consumer its nonsensical to say the salesman is the one being underhand here. The finance company allowed and encouraged the saleman to make up rates at will - or charged predatory rates that bore little to no risk for them.

So no - its nothing to do with the salesman and everything to do with the company charging scammy rates of apr.

The finance companies knew exactly what commission they were being charged and they knew exactly what finance rate they were using.

The judgement release probably found the right middle ground here by taking to task those doing wrong - without going ott and dragging the less unsavoury element into the mix unecessarily.

Lets not pretend that nothing wrong was going on here  - the unfair relationship part of the consumer credit act is real and should be enforced.



11
Avatar for Christopher McGlone

From what the company has maintained all along Tim - and we have to assume tested and confirmed during their significant engagement with the FCA and  the S166 process, i think we can be very confident in the RNS and statement this morning. 

1
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